Jury Pool - misc. thoughts and ideas
First off, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this blog. I think it's important to hear both sides of an argument. I truly don't think either side has a perfect solution. We'll just have to agree to disagree on some specifics. I also feel that even if a person works for the Park Department, their opinion is just as valid and important as some who doesn't. Saying that someone is "for" an issue because it affects their job is an accusation against their character. That just isn't right and sounds a little bit desperate.
The Park Department Survey went out to 4,527 homes. This list was generated by an outside company (InfoUSA) who is one of the largest sales leads / mailing list companies in the world. It would have been great to have a list of every single person who this project touches, but that just wasn't available. The City of New Haven has around 5,500 households. That means that the survey hit close to 80% of our citizens. Perfect? No. Scientifically valid? Absolutely.
Out of the 4,527 surveys sent out, over 1,400 were returned. A response rate of over 30% in a survey like this is incredible. My company printed, assembled, and mailed the survey. When Ken brought it to the shop, I spent some time trying to talk him into making it shorter. I honestly didn't think that many people would take the time needed to read and fill it out. He proved me completely wrong. I think it just showed how passionate the people of New Haven are about Jury Park and the need to keep it a vital part of our community.
One of the questions was a choice to rank the Most Desired Choice of what to do with Jury Pool. The options were: remove the pool; replace it with a splash pad; replace it with a smaller pool; replace it with the same size pool; and replace it with added features. There were 1,167 people who answered this question. Out of those 449 picked "Replace it with Same Size Pool" and 434 picked "Replace it with Added Features". That makes 883 people or 76% of the people who answered that question wanting the pool replaced. There have been comments that at the public meetings, half or more of the people were against the project. I'll go along with that. The reality is that the public has already spoken with the survey. Is it remotely relevant to compare 20 or 30 people that don't want the project against the 883 that said they did? Even if you just pull the 434 who wanted the pool with added features, that's still a huge majority of opinion.
Let's consider the two proposals: Option #2 is to replace the pool with some added features. It's the plan described in my earlier post. The cost is estimated at $4.4 million dollars. This would have a tax impact on a $125,000 assessed valuation home of $45.09 per year. Option #3 is replace the pool (as is), but with the required ADA upgrades and improvements. It would be one combined pool - the same size and configuration as the present one. That plan is estimated at $3.5 million dollars. It would have a tax impact on a $125,000 assessed valuation home of $36.08 per year. If over 75% of our citizens at least want the pool replaced, that would be the minimum hit we're talking about. So basically, we're talking about $9.00 a year difference (per household) for the replacement vs. the improved version. From a business standpoint, I'll go back to the survey. There was a question asking if you'd be willing to pay $2.00 to attend a replacement pool (same size - features). There were 79% of the respondents that answered Yes. When that price was raised to $2.50, 61% said No. Then 75% said No to $3.00. When asked if people would be willing to pay $3.50 to swim at a facility with the added features, 65% said Yes. What the Park Department is trying to do, is to figure out what level of features would bring the most bang for the buck. It seems to me like the added features would easily pay for themselves over the life of the pool. Plus having separate pools for the competition lanes, pleasure pool, and the water slide would allow several different activities to be running at once. Also, more features would keep people interested in the pool longer. That means more concession revenue. The income from concessions hasn't even been discussed.
Another issue discussed is keeping the admission rates low. Obviously, this is critical. I think the best business plan for this is to offer residents a heavily discounted season pass, and charge a premium to the previously mentioned "outsiders" (by the way - historically, about 50% of Jury Pools swimmers are from outside of New Haven). It's been stated on this blog and enthusiastically presented at the last Council Meeting that the Troy, Ohio aquatic center rate was $7.75 per person. Ron Steinman tried to state that it was more like $4.50 and he was correct. Unfortunately, he was wrongly scolded for not having current information. Turns out somebody else didn't do her research very well. The pool that costs $7.75 isn't the Troy, Ohio facility that the Park Department has been using as a model. It's a pool in Troy, Michigan - a suburb of Detroit. The link on a previous comment to this blog directs you to that site. So basically, that information has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If you want to see the Troy, Ohio rates, they are at http://www.troypool.com They also have season passes and family resident passes to bring the cost down.
Another idea that's been tossed around is voting on this proposal with a referendum. I have no problem with that other than the fact that it would delay the project even longer. A six month or year additional delay could easily add $100,000 or more to the project because of inflation. Since the survey overwhelmingly showed favor for doing a project, would it make economic sense to hope that prices wouldn't go up even more a year later? That's up to the Council to decide.
In closing, I've heard the "we can't afford to do this" argument over and over again. I think we can't afford NOT to do it. Both for the economic vitality of our community and the quality of life for our residents. I know it's an additional burden that people on fixed or low income don't need. And I'm truly sorry for that. My mother is 87 years old and lives by herself in New Haven. She's on a fixed income and will never use the pool. Her opinion is that if it's good for the kids in our community, then she'd be glad to help pay for it. I certainly wish more people thought like that. I appreciate the forward thinking of our leaders 40 years ago that took a chance and built Jury Pool. It's one of the features that defines New Haven as a great place to live. I hope it will continue to do that.
Craig Dellinger
The Park Department Survey went out to 4,527 homes. This list was generated by an outside company (InfoUSA) who is one of the largest sales leads / mailing list companies in the world. It would have been great to have a list of every single person who this project touches, but that just wasn't available. The City of New Haven has around 5,500 households. That means that the survey hit close to 80% of our citizens. Perfect? No. Scientifically valid? Absolutely.
Out of the 4,527 surveys sent out, over 1,400 were returned. A response rate of over 30% in a survey like this is incredible. My company printed, assembled, and mailed the survey. When Ken brought it to the shop, I spent some time trying to talk him into making it shorter. I honestly didn't think that many people would take the time needed to read and fill it out. He proved me completely wrong. I think it just showed how passionate the people of New Haven are about Jury Park and the need to keep it a vital part of our community.
One of the questions was a choice to rank the Most Desired Choice of what to do with Jury Pool. The options were: remove the pool; replace it with a splash pad; replace it with a smaller pool; replace it with the same size pool; and replace it with added features. There were 1,167 people who answered this question. Out of those 449 picked "Replace it with Same Size Pool" and 434 picked "Replace it with Added Features". That makes 883 people or 76% of the people who answered that question wanting the pool replaced. There have been comments that at the public meetings, half or more of the people were against the project. I'll go along with that. The reality is that the public has already spoken with the survey. Is it remotely relevant to compare 20 or 30 people that don't want the project against the 883 that said they did? Even if you just pull the 434 who wanted the pool with added features, that's still a huge majority of opinion.
Let's consider the two proposals: Option #2 is to replace the pool with some added features. It's the plan described in my earlier post. The cost is estimated at $4.4 million dollars. This would have a tax impact on a $125,000 assessed valuation home of $45.09 per year. Option #3 is replace the pool (as is), but with the required ADA upgrades and improvements. It would be one combined pool - the same size and configuration as the present one. That plan is estimated at $3.5 million dollars. It would have a tax impact on a $125,000 assessed valuation home of $36.08 per year. If over 75% of our citizens at least want the pool replaced, that would be the minimum hit we're talking about. So basically, we're talking about $9.00 a year difference (per household) for the replacement vs. the improved version. From a business standpoint, I'll go back to the survey. There was a question asking if you'd be willing to pay $2.00 to attend a replacement pool (same size - features). There were 79% of the respondents that answered Yes. When that price was raised to $2.50, 61% said No. Then 75% said No to $3.00. When asked if people would be willing to pay $3.50 to swim at a facility with the added features, 65% said Yes. What the Park Department is trying to do, is to figure out what level of features would bring the most bang for the buck. It seems to me like the added features would easily pay for themselves over the life of the pool. Plus having separate pools for the competition lanes, pleasure pool, and the water slide would allow several different activities to be running at once. Also, more features would keep people interested in the pool longer. That means more concession revenue. The income from concessions hasn't even been discussed.
Another issue discussed is keeping the admission rates low. Obviously, this is critical. I think the best business plan for this is to offer residents a heavily discounted season pass, and charge a premium to the previously mentioned "outsiders" (by the way - historically, about 50% of Jury Pools swimmers are from outside of New Haven). It's been stated on this blog and enthusiastically presented at the last Council Meeting that the Troy, Ohio aquatic center rate was $7.75 per person. Ron Steinman tried to state that it was more like $4.50 and he was correct. Unfortunately, he was wrongly scolded for not having current information. Turns out somebody else didn't do her research very well. The pool that costs $7.75 isn't the Troy, Ohio facility that the Park Department has been using as a model. It's a pool in Troy, Michigan - a suburb of Detroit. The link on a previous comment to this blog directs you to that site. So basically, that information has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If you want to see the Troy, Ohio rates, they are at http://www.troypool.com They also have season passes and family resident passes to bring the cost down.
Another idea that's been tossed around is voting on this proposal with a referendum. I have no problem with that other than the fact that it would delay the project even longer. A six month or year additional delay could easily add $100,000 or more to the project because of inflation. Since the survey overwhelmingly showed favor for doing a project, would it make economic sense to hope that prices wouldn't go up even more a year later? That's up to the Council to decide.
In closing, I've heard the "we can't afford to do this" argument over and over again. I think we can't afford NOT to do it. Both for the economic vitality of our community and the quality of life for our residents. I know it's an additional burden that people on fixed or low income don't need. And I'm truly sorry for that. My mother is 87 years old and lives by herself in New Haven. She's on a fixed income and will never use the pool. Her opinion is that if it's good for the kids in our community, then she'd be glad to help pay for it. I certainly wish more people thought like that. I appreciate the forward thinking of our leaders 40 years ago that took a chance and built Jury Pool. It's one of the features that defines New Haven as a great place to live. I hope it will continue to do that.
Craig Dellinger
Hearing both sides of the argument is essential when considering a project such as this. I'm certainly willing to listen and consider all rational viewpoints but I think comments like these are very disappointing:
"There was a definite majority of down votes at the meeting on Tuesday. Will our city council listen? I certainly hope they will because if they don't, the next election may turn out very differently."
I find it perplexing that someone would resort to these types of statements in an effort to instill fear into decision makers. I could very well make the same statement and insinuate that if council members do not vote in FAVOR of this project, then they may find themselves voted out of office in the next election. What do remarks like these accomplish other that to demonstrate a complete inability to form a rational argument based on logic?
Sending this project to a referendum is the best option in my opinion.
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It seems to me that most of the people who are against this project are business owners. If they are so concerned about the price tag of this project why don't they step up and make a donation to this project to help cut down on the cost.I don't think they would like it if the residents of New Haven started protesting in front of there businesses that their prices are to high. The park department is a not for profit organization and is financed by our tax dollars only so they can not be expected to build something with money they don't have. Quit complaining and step up and help them. Don't criticize them for doing what they can with what little funds they get.
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I would like to say not fixing Jury Pool could be signing our community death certificate. People look at what a community can provide. I would like the council to look at what we have lost. Scotts, Hallmark, New Haven Laundrymat, etc. Can we afford to be a declining community? I support the renovation not just repairing. The survey gave the support. Every year we wait will cost more later.
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Ok now.....using words like "our community death certificate" is stepping over the line, don't you think?
Let's save those kinds of words for something FAR more tragic than a pool.
Really....
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I don't think saying "our community death certificate" is stepping over the line. Jury Pool is visited by more than just the residents of Highland Terrace and New Haven. The pool attracts people from Fort Wayne and beyond. Former residents have returned to the pool with their kids and their grandkids. I have seen it for myself. I use to live in Fort Wayne, but would come to Jury Pool instead of McMillen Pool (which I lived closer to). Jury Pool is one of New Haven's biggest attractions and the easiest of the 3 pools in town to get to. I would like to know how much business Dairy Queen has done this past summer vs. the 2008 summer season that Jury Pool was open. I would take my daughter and any friends we brought along to Dairy Queen after the pool. We lose this gem, there will be one more big reason to not come to New Haven. Nobody outside of New Haven wants to come to Meadowbrook or New Haven Pool. I think the Parks Department has a wonderful plan to shine up and spiff up that gem of a pool. It is just like they said in the movie "Field of Dreams": "If we build it, they will come!" It's in a great location and a great neighborhood staffed by great people. That is why people came in the first place.
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Remember the cemetery vandalism in Leo-Cedarville a few weeks ago? Do they have a community pool? No. Do they have anything for kids to do in order to stay out of trouble during the long summer days? No. What do you expect the kids will do if you don't keep them occupied and give them something to do? Get into trouble!
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That would be a valid argument (keeping kids out of trouble), except Mr. Dellinger just stated that over 50% of the people who use the pool are not New Haven residents. I seriously doubt cemetery vandalism happens during pool hours anyway...that would be pretty bold.
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I would like to say not fixing Jury Pool could be signing our community death certificate.
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Julie
Naton wide cash is easy and fast
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